Part 2 of Fallacies and Errors of Repentance — A Report, and Review of a Repentance Discourse Between Pastors Tommy McMurtry and Charlie Haddad

April 12, 2025

The intentions all along were to publish everything on this subject in the one report, but with an endeavour to keep our reports shorter, the volume size became too large. Here is the second part. Quite possibly further additions will be forthcoming at some point in the future, at the very least on repentance errors and fallacies, but possibly also on the said discourse or other examples of McMurtry's false repentance and false gospel and deception as a Christian pastor.

After listening through the debate twice, and then listening through other doctrinal teachings and sermons and debates of Tommy's, the very clear and conclusive diagnosis of this man, if there was any doubt before, is that he is indeed a heretic and false teacher. Without a shadow of doubt. Crystal clear.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways..." (2 Pet 2:1-2)

Here are some of the most important reasons we know Tommy is a false teacher, including what we have already covered:

• He rejects true Biblical repentance and thus the everlasting and saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

• He rejects that lost man must repent of his sins, that is to turn from his sins, to be saved.

• He believes in a false repentance of turning from unbelief to belief.

• He is a proponent of easy believism and quick prayerism (including the sinners prayer), which is a false gospel.

• He rejects immediate fruit of regeneration/salvation, or fruit as a test of saving faith, with some professing believers remaining unchanged in their actions. We deal with this subject here in this second part.

• He rejects that one becomes a disciple at the moment of the new birth, in place of at some point afterwards post-salvation. We deal with this subject in this second part, but also here: The Call to Discipleship is a Call to Salvation.

• He believes that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered in hell fire after His death on the cross. We deal with this subject here: Did Jesus Go to Hell for the Redemption of Man's Sin?

• He is a Master of logical fallacies, which is subtle lying and bearing false witness, abominations to God. This is how false teachers always operate. It is their modus operandi.

• His anti-Israel and anti-Zionism position on Israel is very close to replacement theology, and its evil, heretical and a mark of an unregenerate charlatan. We deal with this subject here: Replacement Theology (Supersessionism): A Doctrine of Devils.

• He is void of true Biblical spiritual discernment in areas that matter the most, as pointed out in this list, while all truly regenerate believers have true spiritual discernment in all matters of truth (1 Cor 2:14-16; 1 Jn 2:20-21, 27; 4:1; Pr 8:8-9; 22:20-21).

When confronted with his errors, heresies and damnable heresies, he does a masterful job of playing spin doctor bottlestopper. He has a very difficult time admitting what he actually genuinely believes. Rather than presenting his true position and genuine belief, he sugar coats, does the dance around the fire and the golden calf, constructs every sort of logical fallacy that his "carnal mind" (Rom 8) can conjure, and then twists, wrests, misuses and abuses scripture as the wicked do so well (2 Pet 3:16-17), becoming a picture-perfect fulfillment of a Pharisee straining at gnats while swallowing camels (Matt 23). It's very sad when a man is professing to be something that he isn't, which is a hypocrite, a pretender, imposter, and deceiver. Obviously lost; no place in Scripture is someone with that label saved. The hypocrite is always unregenerate. Tommy has so convinced himself that he is a Christian, it would seem almost impossible to convince him that he is lost. Hence the dire repeated warning from Scripture about this most dangerous condition (such as in Proverbs 1:20-32), where someone claims to belong to God and honour Him with their lips but their heart is far from Him:

"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mk 7:6-7)

His arguments against the true and pure gospel of Christ are horrendous and wicked. The things that he argues have no Biblical basis, which is why he rarely quotes any Scripture to support his heresy, and when he does, it is misused scripture as a prooftext or horribly wrested. It’s actually not just heresy, but “damnable heresy,” which exposes him as a “false teacher” (2 Pet 2:1). We have EASILY refuted his perverted gospel so far, and will continue to. Many people think they are pejoratively charging us with another gospel when they label us as "Lordship Salvation." You can call it whatever you want, i.e. Lordship Salvation, but it's 100% out of the Bible. I happen to like the title Lordship Salvation, because it is Biblical and there is no other salvation. So we will own it. And no, it's not "Calvinism" or "Reformed," both of which are very convenient straw men and a certain revelation of the intelligence level of the ones that love to be duped and deceived and their ears tickled (2 Tim 4:3-4). We deal with that false argument here, along with a number of strong and sharp exposes of Calvinism and Reformed Theology, a repugnant theology that we absolutely despise.

The biggest problem I have noted with Tommy and his faithful disciples is that they aren't actually interested in the truth, though they attempt to come across like that. They don't deal with anything that a speaker says and refutes with Scripture, because they aren't actually interested in the truth, only to keep their perverted "gospel" going, since the true gospel exposes their actual unregenerate and deluded nature and condition. They like their "gospel" quick and easy, most likely how they like most other things in their lives. This sordid camp of “free grace” (while attempting to claim they aren’t “free grace”) are wicked wresters of God’s Word (2 Pet 3:16-17), not only concerning the doctrine of salvation, but also many words associated with salvation/gospel, such as “free gift,” and “simplicity in Christ,” “carnal,” “backslidden,” lukewarm,” and “unbelief.” They have to corrupt and pervert the meaning of all these words as well to support their damnable heresy of easy believism and quick prayerism.

These heretics believe that its a works gospel when “works validate their salvation.” I wonder what Bible they read? The KJV? Obviously its not doing much for them, and they appear like a kindergarten child that cherry picks a word here and a word there and a verse here and a verse there, hoping to win some cereal box prize, while justifying their horribly nauseating corruption of God’s gospel. Good works do justify salvation, period. Read 1 John, James, and 2 John to start with. We've done a report on one of these books: Evidence of Salvation in John's Epistle’s. Over and over we read of evidences and marks of salvation in these epistles, which is largely based around obedience to the Word of God, and thus good works. Good works is the major distinguishing factor between true faith and dead faith in James 2.

Tommy doesn't like to be labelled as a heretic or false teacher. To bad. You are both mate. Clearly. Plainly. People that preach or support a false gospel make me sick and nauseous, but worse, they do that to God and more. When eternity comes, He will spew them out of His mouth, just like all other false professing “believers” and their perverted version of the gospel. Isa 8:20 exposes men like Tommy to be false teachers:

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

With that said, some more on the errors and fallacies of this debate.

Error and Fallacy: Salvation (thus Repentance) Does Not Always Produce Outward Fruit or Evidence After Salvation, and We Can’t Really Judge Whether Someone is Saved Objectively.

This is a very wicked false teaching but it's very reflective of those who embrace the heretical "free grace" theology with its easy believism and quick prayerism. They judge others not by the Word of God, which is righteous judgment (Jn 7:24), but by their own personal experiences. In other words, they do not expect fruit in "believers" because they themselves never had any fruit after their alleged "salvation."

Before we dive into the heresies of this ungodly teaching, first a bit on what Biblical fruit is. Neither Tommy nor Charlie seem to understand what "fruit of salvation" is to its full extent. If they actually do, it was never addressed anywhere, which is extremely common in preaching, and all that was heard was the feelings element of fruit: love, joy, peace, and so on. Thats part of it, but unfortunately thats usually all thats heard, but it's not all of it. Fruit and evidence of salvation is also fulfilling what John says in his first epistle, listing at least thirteen markers of salvation. It is doing the will of God for instance, obeying the Word of God, which is a major marker of conversion. This is fruit of salvation. Salvation that produces substance. Furthermore, and importantly, fruit is considered in Scripture as souls won to Christ. It is fruit of the righteous. This is the idea behind the 100-fold, 60-fold, 30-fold fruit of the good ground in the parable of the sower and the seed, the only ground that is truly converted and born again amongst the four (Matt 13; Mk 4; Lk 8).

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt 13:23)

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." (Pr 11:30)

No fruit earns an axe from the Master logger, who will hew and chop them down and cast them into the eternal fires of hell (Lk 3).

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (Lk 3:9)

Charlie speaks of the evidence of salvation and how a man is immediately changed and doesn’t continue on in old sinful ways, like continuing to say the Catholic rosary or continuing to complete the sacraments with the eucharist, confession and so on, which Tommy follows with a denial of objectively judging true Biblical evidence and the Biblical truth of salvation fruit, though he poorly attempts to give lip service to these things:

“The problem we are having theologically is, the bible does teach what happens immediately in the inward man when one does get saved, the Bible also teaches what the final results will be of that person who has believed, which is glorification. However, in the mean time we have this sanctifying thats going on, we do not know exactly how things will play out. You bring up doing the rosary or something like that. Well here’s the problem. If I say a saved person would never do the rosary or go to a priest for confession or something like that, well that might not particularly be true because again sometimes people get saved and it takes a little for them to get learning. When people get saved we are not downloaded with all knowledge when we receive the Holy Ghost. I personally believe though when a person gets saved there is, it is proper to have expectations but I believe we are required to have patience with people, we are to be long-suffering with those people, because some people are going to take a while to manifest the fruit of the Spirit, its going to be a while, I believe everyone that is truly saved will one day be glorified. I believe once you get saved you are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, we’ll be just like Christ one of these days. One hand we are theologically inaccurate when we declare a standard for what will happen when they get saved, we don’t know what that is because its going to be different for everybody, everybody’s got different background, we grow differently, umm, so we’ve gotta be careful with that. However there is certainly terminology in the Bible that we must also take into context like with repentance. . . . A lot of the things you were mentioning too, like go and sin no more, things like being my disciple, these are the instructions for the believer. I believe when a persons gets saved, all saved people are called to be disciples, God’s will for them to all be disciples, but some people are going to drag their feet a bit, some people are going to jump right in like the apostle Paul did, so I think though when we start casting doubt on salvation because someone is not meeting an expected standard that we have, I think thats were we start complicating the gospel, changing the gospel, and I think we just need to be careful with that.”

1. Wow. This is unbelievable. Thats a lot there, and a lot of issues, serious issues with what Tommy says here. Where does he come up with this nonsense? Oh I know, from the manifold masses of IFB preachers and Neo-evangelicals that teach the same power-less and fruit-less “salvation.” Their books and preaching flood Baptist churches, schools, and colleges. Many of these books have a heretical Keswick theological leaning, which many IFB man-centred heretics salivate after. But he certainly doesn't derive this heresy from the Word of God.

2. He is 100% wrong and unBiblical in his push for a fruitless, changeless, disciple-less "salvation," and it’s not difficult to prove either. He is lying and bearing false witness to the truth, because the truth does not fit his experience, and very likely his own testimony. That is about par with almost all testimonies nowadays heard from IFB folks who grow up as IFB kids, especially the children of those in the ministry. Its simply another form of religion, a more polished and closer-to-the-truth version.

3. He says half way through that now he is speaking on what he “personally believes.” What was it that he just stated prior to that? Of whose belief was that?? Wasn't it "personal"? Is there a disconnect between the hypothetical and the factual?

4. Every single conversion on earth is exactly the same, and necessarily so, since the Spirit of God is One Person of the Godhead and He changes not. The regeneration (Ti 3:3-7) of God the Spirit is precisely the same, which is why its written in such a fashion in Scripture, never indicating anywhere that it may vary or change between people, and why Paul indicated to Titus that the predicted and consistent work of the Spirit's regeneration in sinners was to be "affirm[ed] constantly," (Ti 3:8). Though the circumstances might be different in how we get there, the fruit and effects of salvation are always the same. They never change. Never. Jesus makes that abundantly clear, as do all other Bible preachers, teachers and writers.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (Jn 3:8)

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

There is NO difference between two human beings as to the effects of salvation. They are exactly the same. This is yet another logical fallacy by Tommy the Heretic, for he does not and cannot relate to the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit.

5. Is there a difference between the "internal" and "external"? Here and in the context and in other places, Tommy attempts to make a division between the internal and the external. Apparently in the internal, the inward man, there is salvation but that is no guarantee that there will be any change in the external. Matter of fact, to expect external change is to add a standard of expectation that apparently the Word of God does not. Wow. Yikes. This is really bad. It is indeed heretical and powerless "Christianity," and no surprise there are people in his "church" that go for years before demonstrating any apparent external effects or fruit of the Spirit, even admitted to out of Tommy's own accord. It's the heretical system and false gospel that breeds these charlatans and hypocrites, thanks to men like Tommy the Heretic.

There are hundreds of passages that refute his heresy, but even just one would suffice:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

When a repebtant sinner is converted to Christ, he becomes a new creature. All his old things and ways are passed away, and all things and ways become new. Not some things but all things. And NOT new added to the old, but entirely new with all old things passes way. Guess what. There's going to be scripted and dramatic change, and its not going to vary between saints. Paul was writing this to the Church at Corinth, never indicating this type of change would vary between church members, but rather exactly the same, only concerning those of course that are genuinely converted to Christ. This reflects NOT just some internal change without any external change, but both internal and external, because internal without external is nonsensical and vanity. This would be a cleansing inside of the cup without any external effects. James speaks of this precisely, the dead faith of the false "convert." This would be laughable if it weren't so serious. Is there even one example of anything like this in Scripture that Tommy speaks of?? NOT EVEN ONE.

6. Tommy claims that in the process of God's "sanctifying . . . we do not know exactly how things will play out." He said that to support his external fruitlessness, to support this ungodly heresy. But it's certainly not true! We know exactly how things will play out. Here are a few hints, among many, that lay it out quite precisely:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son [this happens during our lifetime, not after death], that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:28-30)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Phil 1:8)

7. To justify a lack of fruit and evidence, and a new believers continuing allegiance to false religion (e.g."doing the rosary or go to a priest for confession or something like that,"), he claims: "sometimes people get saved and it takes a little for them to get learning." Absolute nonsense! He further justifies the false philosophy with: "When people get saved we are not downloaded with all knowledge when we receive the Holy Ghost." He also says, "some people are going to take a while to manifest the fruit of the Spirit, its going to be a while, I believe everyone that is truly saved will one day be glorified." At no place in Scripture does it ever say that for some Christians it's "going to take a while" thats it's "going to be a while" for them to be fruitful. Hocus pocus.

He is actually outright rejecting fruit of salvation and evidence of salvation and a dramatically changed life. Any type of statement that opposes what Scripture indicates about the immediacy of fruit with conversion, that casts doubt upon whether the saint changes at salvation, or that it might take some time, even years, is a truth-denying heretical statement invented by the doctrines of man. It is egregious and false, and is reflective of a false gospel and soteriology. That is exactly what Tommy is presenting here and it once again 100% points to an unregenerate nature. You can't be wrong on these kind of critical matters and be saved. True salvation does not work like that. In a massive way, our beliefs and doctrines reflect our true nature (e.g., Matt 7:15-20; Rom 16:17) and all who are truly regenerated live the evidence of salvation, passing God's test of faith.

See what Paul declared of the Colossians, and then made it applicable to all that are truly born again throughout the world:

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" (Col 1:3-6)

Since the very day that they heard and repentantly believed the word of the truth of the gospel (genuinely converted: "knew the grace of God in truth"), they brought forth fruit also, just like it does "in all the world," because it is good seed on good ground. No exceptions. Men like Tommy can deceive and twist and lie about the truth all they want, manipulating it to fit their corrupted version of the gospel, but the seed and its fruit defies their heresy and blasphemy and perversion.

That is why, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 Cor 3:4). It is the seed that produces the effects of the new birth, and you cannot deceive or deny the working of the seed.

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Pet 1:23)

And that is why true, genuine and unfeigned love for the brethren (which is rarely seen today; most "love" is feigned and/or self-serving) is a massive evidence of salvation, the very subject that leads up to this declaration of the new birth by Peter, and yet once again denied by Tommy the Heretic (apparently not all true believers have love for the brethren):

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:" (1 Pet 1:22)

Repeatedly the Bible indicates that salvation ALWAYS produces verifiable fruit and evidence without exception True salvation that must involve true repentance always has substance and evidence and fruit that require an examination of ones experience, noted in passages such as Ezk. 36:25-27; Jer. 23:3; Ps. 1:1-3; Pr. 11:30; 12:12b; Matt. 3:1-12; 7:15-20; 13:8-23; 21:28-32, 41-44; Mk. 4:20-29; Lk. 8:15-16; Jn. 4:35-38; 15:1-16; Rom. 11:16; 2 Cor. 5:18-20; 9:10; Col. 1:4-6; Jam. 1:18; 2:14-26; 3:17; etc — which is how we know we are truly saved and those that we fellowship with, hence the command to “give diligence to make your calling and election sure” (2 Pet 1:10). And those that don’t have it, are false believers (exposed in the epistle of 1 John, James, Parable of the sower and seed: the wayward, stony and thorny soils, etc). Sinners are called to “repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance” (Ac 26:20), but that will not occur if a sinner does not turn from his sin.

It is by the outcome that we know we are saved. True faith always produces something. What Tommy is in fact advocating for is dead faith (Jam 2:14-26). He is calling good evil and evil good (Is 5:20). Without repenting of your sins for salvation, you will remain unsaved, and reflect this fruitless organism blown about by all winds of doctrine and following after strange and diverse doctrines (Heb 13:9). Arguing against this clear biblical truth is both ridiculous and foolish to begin with, but it dovetails with the fruitless “salvation.” Throwing our invective logical fallacies by changing the Biblical meaning of this by implying that someone has to change their life first or is turning from sin as if that act itself is what saves the person, also doesn’t help his cause but only further condemns his guilty estate. Every person in the world that is actually truly born again knows you have to turn from your sins in order to be saved and that fruit/evidence of salvation starts at the very moment of the new birth (e.g., Col 1:4-6; Matt 13:23; 1 Jn 2:3-5; Ti 3:3-7; etc).

John the Baptist preached to the lost that they need to turn from their sin, to repent (Matt 3:2; Mk 1:1-4), which will result in bringing forth good fruit, and those who do not repent and as a result bring forth good fruit are hewn down at the root with the Lord's axe and cast into unquenchable fire (Matt 3:7-11). Jesus Christ preached the same message of repentance (Matt 4:17; Mk 1:15-20; 8:34-38; Lk 14:25-15:32) and commanded His apostles to preach the same message (Mk 6:12) and His saints to continue to preach the same message of the gospel (Lk 24:47).

This heresy is the same throughout the world of "free grace" "Christianity." Every single revivalist IFB church embraces these heresies, which is also why they align with many elements of Keswick theology.

8. Tommy continues perverting Scripture to booster his egregious philosophy, as noted:

"I believe once you get saved you are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, we’ll be just like Christ one of these days."

That sounds pretty good doesn't it. What is the problem then? He doesn't mean what you think this statement means. When he says "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," and "we’ll be just like Christ one of these days," referring to 1 Jn 3:1, he is NOT referring to the effects of salvation here upon the earth, the fruit and evidence of salvation, but rather what occurs after we die or are raptured. However, when the Bible uses the language, "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," it is referring to the born again believer conformed to Christ DURING this lifetime upon the earth, as Rom 8:28 so clearly tells us, NOT after death or at the rapture, what Tommy is conveying here. He stated this multiple times during the discourse, and this is what he actually means, even evident here as he concludes the thought: "we’ll be just like Christ one of these days." Indeed we will be just like Christ when the rapture occurs or at death, but when the Bible speaks of being conformed to Christ's image, it is not referring to the afterlife, beyond the grave, but to this life, the one upon the earth. You see how he is intermixing two different truths to make it appear that he agrees with the Biblical position that all professing believers will be fruitful and conformed to Christ, only his perverted doctrine puts both together after death or at the rapture, "we’ll be just like Christ one of these days." Every time he spoke of this during the discourse, this is what he was referring to. This is very sly and manipulative, but it's wicked and even more reflective of the unfruitful life of the "believer" false doctrine that Tommy embraces and propagates. Very wicked!

9. Tommy claims that when we believe what the Bible says about what happens when a persons gets saved, which is immediate fruit, changed life and Biblical evidence, we are creating a standard of expected outcomes.

"One hand we are theologically inaccurate when we declare a standard for what will happen when they get saved, we don’t know what that is because its going to be different for everybody, everybody’s got different background, we grow differently, umm, so we’ve gotta be careful with that."

This is a ridiculous statement to make and once again indicative of someone that takes serious issue with Scriptures testimony to the dramatic event of salvation. Practically every time he opens his mouth, something contrary to Scripture pours out. Of course every human is unique and comes to Christ through different circumstances, but salvation and its effects is NOT different between two true converts. They are exactly the same, which is why you can have perfect unity and oneness of mind, judgment, faith, mouth, praise, (Rom 12:6; 15:6; 1 Cor 1:10; 12:25-26; Ac 2:42, 45; 4:31-32; Eph 4:1-16; Phil 1:27; 2:1-4; 3:15-19; 4:1-2; Heb 6:12; 1 Pet 3:8-9). The passages above describe this oneness and unity as believing the same thing, holding to the same sound doctrine, the same spiritual convictions, the same scriptural goals, speaking the same language and judgment, having the same mind and mouth, being of one accord and standing fast in one Spirit. God requires this true unity in the true NT church but of course it is only possible between true converts, which is why it doesn't exist in churches like Tommy's and most others. Sheep and goats or wheat and tares cannot have the same thing. They don't, God is very, very clear about that, but Tommy says they do. We wonder who is right.

I have no doubt that Tommy at one point carried a bag full of “works salvation” labels tied to his belt, ready to zip-tie the tag to any argument that didn't fit his easy-believism, especially this one with the expectant fruit from a profession of faith. We haven't heard these sort of fables and false arguments in this discourse, but thats likely only because its been beaten to death to many times, and any sense of normality says he's gotta move beyond that. So he did his homework and developed a lot of crafty, sly and deceptive "theological" arguments, but none that can stand up to the Word of God, including this one where we can't expect any Biblical outcome and fruit from a new convert. Yet, Jesus insisted that “by their fruits ye shall know them.”

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:15-20)

Sounds an awful lot like Jesus told us to expect fruit from a tree, whether godly fruit from a good tree or bad fruit from a corrupt tree.

Furthermore, Jesus insists that there are actually only two kinds of branches – those that bear fruit and those that do not (have-nots actually bear corrupt fruit, as the above passage tells us, and Jude and others). Jesus tells us that the fruitless branches will be cut off and cast into the furnace of fire:

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (Jn 15:2-6)

Here is what Paul identified as a mark of someone who belongs to Christ, an expected outcome:

"And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

The mark of a believer is that he turned from his sin in his salvation and then lives like that (Rom 6:17-22; 2 Pet 2:20-22), because he that is free is freed from sin forever (Jn 8:31-36).

10. He claims that the call to discipleship is instructions for believers. Wrong. Not surprising though, it dovetails with his heretical gospel and theology. Naturally someone without a Biblical testimony of salvation and an adherent to a perverted gospel that distorts and destroys repentance and true faith, will always believe in this heresy of post-, Again, this is very serious perversion and wresting of Scripture which is an "error of the wicked." (2 Pet 3:16-17). He states here,

"A lot of the things you were mentioning too, like go and sin no more, things like being my disciple, these are the instructions for the believer. . . . God’s will for them to all be disciples, but some people are going to drag their feet a bit, some people are going to jump right in like the apostle Paul did, so I think though when we start casting doubt on salvation because someone is not meeting an expected standard that we have, I think thats were we start complicating the gospel, changing the gospel, and I think we just need to be careful with that.” 

The only person that is complicating and changing the gospel is Tommy the Heretic, a fitting title indeed. Paul's salvation is NOTHING different than any other human being that is truly and genuinely born again. Salvation doesn't change between repentant sinners. That Tommy doesn't understand this is extremely concerning, but unsurprising. Of course we cast doubt on someone's so-called "salvation" when they don't meet the Biblical expectations of what salvation is. Should we call eating a jar of peanut butter sufficient to be saved? What of true value does the Word of God have to people like Tommy? It is powerless and means literally nothing, as they corrupt, twist, pervert, wrest the words of God into whatever they desire it to mean.

The call to discipleship in the Bible is always a call to salvation. Without exception. It's no different than the call to become a Christian, and in fact, they were called disciples long before they were ever called Christians (Ac 11:26). Every true born again Christian is a disciple of Christ from the very moment of salvation, but not every professing disciple is a true Christian (e.g. Jn 2:23-25; 6:60-66; 8:31-36; 1 Jn. 2:19; Ac. 8:13-24; etc). The Greek noun “mathetes,” translated into "disciple(s)," is found 255x in the NT and means someone that is a learner or a pupil of a master. The word is used interchangeably with believer throughout the NT, and in John chapter 2 those that came to salvation in Christ were already called disciples, "and his disciples believed on him." (v. 11). The act of making disciples is expressed with the Greek verb “matheteuo.” Making disciples (Matt 28:19) — the word translated into "teach" in this passage, the great commission, "Go ye therefore, and teach the nations..." — takes place by preaching the gospel and having people come to repent (Lk 24:47) and believe (Mk 16:15-16), and thus receive the remission of sins (Lk 24:47; Mk 16:16; Jn 20:23), after which the believers/disciples should be baptized (Matt 28:19; Mk 16:16). The response to the preaching of the gospel is people becoming disciples by the new birth (Ac 14:21), for one is discipled or instructed “unto the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 13:52) by the “foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” (1 Cor 1:21). As with the noun “mathetes,” the verb “matheteuo” indicates one becomes a disciple by becoming a believer. No text teaches or implies that disciples are an elite subcategory within a larger group of Christians. Disciples are regularly contrasted with the unregenerate, but never with a underclass of truly saved people who have not yet become disciples. The usage of the noun and verb forms for disciple make the equation of believers and disciples exceedingly plain. Indeed, the terms Christian and disciple are explicitly equated (Ac 11:26). Scripture teaches and affirms the truth that one becomes a disciple at the moment of saving faith, and that those who do not are false "believers" who will be damned.

When Paul preached the gospel message that “by [Christ] all that believe are justified from all things, from which [they] could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Ac 13:39), those who “believed” received “eternal life” (Ac 13:48) and thus became “disciples” (Ac 13:52; cf. 14:1, 21-23). When people heard the gospel, they either became “disciples” or they rejected the Lord and “believed not” (Ac 19:9). Scripture clearly and regularly equates the categories of believer and disciple, and promises those who are in these categories the same eternal felicity, and warns of eternal damnation for all who do not become disciples or believers.

God's Word does not teach that discipleship begins after salvation, but that the call to discipleship, to follow Christ, is a call to salvation (e.g. Matt 19:17-30; Mk 8:34-38; 10:17-31; Lk 5:1-11; 9:23-26, 57-62; 14:15-15:32; 18:18-31; Jn 12:24-26). Even just a cursory analysis of these passages makes that crystal clear. We will take two texts out of that list, texts that all speak of the exact same thing, and show that the call of Christ to be His disciple is a call to conversion.

In Mk 8:34-38 the Lord Jesus Christ says,

“And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

(a) The text teaches that one who does not become a disciple of Christ (a follower of Christ) will lost their own soul, will be eternally damned in other words. In v. 34, denial of self and taking up the cross is a representation of the sinner coming to the point of saving repentance, with a resultant lifestyle of continued following of Christ. In this verse, the Lord addresses “the people . . . with his disciples also.” Who are "the people" that Jesus is teaching? These were the unconverted multitudes, “the people,” and vv. 34-38 was a call for them to repent and receive salvation, not how lost people can be better Christians. He also addressed His professing disciples because not every disciple is a true believer (e.g. Judas, the “many of His disciples” in Jn 6:60-66, later on Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, etc).

(b) Christ’s call to sinners to “follow me” (v. 34) was a call to salvation, since the Lord’s “disciples follow him” (Mk 6:1; Matt 8:23; Lk 22:39; Jn 18:15; 21:20). Matthew the apostle was converted in this manner (Lk 5:27-28), as were the two sets of brothers (Mk 1:15-20; Lk 5:1-11) — according to the apostles themselves: Mk 10:26; Matt 19:27; Lk 18:28, and confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ: Mk 10:27-31; Matt 19:28-30; Lk 18:29-30.

(c) One who was bearing a cross in the land of Israel in Christ’s day was on his way to the shameful and extremely painful death of crucifixion (Jn. 19:17) — repentant faith in Christ involves losing one’s life, that is, turning from our own way of living and sinful ways, from exaltation of self and comfort, to surrender to Christ as unconditional Lord (Mk. 8:35). It’s an exchange of masters (Matt 6:24).

(d) The person who wishes to continue to live his own way and life, to “save his life,” will eternally lose “both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:28, 39), while one who turns from his own way, denying himself, taking up the cross, and losing his life for the sake of Christ and the gospel, will save his life or soul (same Greek word “pseuche”) by receiving eternal life. “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal” (Jn 12:25).

(e) To encourage the lost to give up their own way and surrender to Christ’s Lordship for salvation, Christ reminds them it profits them nothing if they gain the whole world, but lose their souls (Mk 8:36-37).

(f) Those who, rather than being ashamed of their sins (Rom. 6:21; cf. Rom. 1:16; 2 Tim. 1:8, 12, 16) are ashamed to follow Christ and His Words in this evil and adulterous world will have Christ be ashamed of them at His return and thus be eternally damned—for Christ is “not ashamed to call [true believers] brethren” (Heb 2:11), and “God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city” (Heb. 11:16; Lk. 9:26). No text in Scripture indicates that God will be “ashamed” of His people—he is not ashamed of them (Heb. 11:16). Mk. 8:34-38 clearly teaches that all saved people are disciples, and that one who refuses to become Christ’s disciple will face an eternity in hell.

The Rich Young Ruler (Matt 19; Lk 18; Mk 10) is an excellent example that confounds the charlatans that attempt to corrupt God's gospel/salvation call into something post-salvation. The case of the rich and religious young ruler in Mk 10:17-31 (parallel Matt 19 and Lk 18) exemplifies the teaching of Mk 8:34-38. Christ told the rich ruler who wanted to “inherit eternal life” (v. 17) to forsake all “and come, take up the cross, and follow me” (v. 21). There were five commands given: “Sell, distribute, come, take up the cross and follow me.” What Jesus preached here in Mk 10:21 is the very same thing He preached in Mk 8:34-38; Lk 9:23-26 and Matt 16:24-26, what many would call “discipleship passages." Jesus is preaching to a lost Jew — why would He talk about discipleship with a lost person?! (hmmm, suspect indeed). This is the response that should be called for in order for someone to be saved. This is what is required to get into the kingdom, to have eternal life, according to God the Son. To turn this account into ‘discipleship” or “dedication” is to rip it from its context, to confuse what is required for salvation. It is a dastardly perversion of the gospel, diminishing saving faith to the intellect. Salvation does indeed come from believing in Jesus Christ. He must however be the Jesus of the Bible, Who is God and Lord. That is a clear implication of the young ruler passage. Non-lordship or anti-lordship people will shrink or depreciate the identity of Jesus. They make Him more palatable to a worldly audience. But in so doing, they make their hearers two-fold more the children of hell they once were. The rich young man refused to obey God the Son, for he was unwilling to forsake his riches, he was unwilling to repent of his covetousness, so he did not inherit the kingdom of God (vv. 22-24). Those who do leave and forsake all to follow Christ (vv. 28-29 — the apostles testimonies, which occurred in Mk 1:15-20; Lk 5:1-11, 27-28) become God’s “children” (v. 24) and will “receive . . . in the world to come eternal life” (v. 30), having submitted to Christ as Lord and Saviour with a contrite and broken spirit and the humble faith of a little child (vv. 13-16). This is God's call to discipleship, but the rich young ruler wouldn't, but praise the Lord the rich publican would (Lk 19:1-10).

We don’t become disciples of Christ at some point after we are converted. This is utter ridiculousness and heretical two-tiered Keswick “Christianity.” There are not three categories of men, two of which are different types of Christians, but two only! Where does this heresy come from? From a false gospel, the same type of false gospel that Tommy parades. People want salvation without paying the cost. Without self-denial but rather self-gratification. Without turning from their sinful and wicked ways. Without having to give up the world and all the evil it comes with. People want Jesus and Heaven while loving the world and their lives and their families and everything else. That is the state of Christianity in our day, as it has been for at least a century. But it’s false and heretical, inoculating unsaved false professing "believers" to the truth and making them two-fold children of hell.

Today and about the last century, many men, including Tommy and vast amounts of IFB revivalist heretical preachers have been corrupting these passages by reading into the Bible a new doctrine, a new “salvation,” using these passages especially (and others like it such as Mk 1:18-20; Lk 5:1-11) as proof texts. Proof texts for a Lordless and repentant-less and non-changing gospel of easy believism. They have to, in order for their heretical system to stick. This false interpretation methodology observed by men like Tommy (and I believe Charlie is guilty of this as well) is called eisegesis, and it derives from Rome. A subjective approach, eisegesis, allows someone to make a text mean whatever he wants. He might start with what he'd like the Bible to say or perhaps defend his own thinking by finding a passage to say it. This changes God's Word as much as adding or taking away from the words, maybe worse. Subjectively, the eisegetical interpreter introduces his own opinions as opposed to expounding literally, in context, giving careful attention to the God-inspired words employed (1 Jn 2:20-21, 27), comparing scripture with scripture (1 Cor 2:13-16) and rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), expositing what the text actually says which is exegesis. Rather, they eisegete. They put in rather than pull out. They force ideas and views into the text that aren’t there. In this case it’s turning Christ’ salvation message into practical sanctification, which then dramatically changes the Gospel message, denies salvation and produces false pretending “believers” as two fold children of hell.

As mentioned already, though the focus here is on Tommy and his twisting of Biblical doctrine and eisegetically wresting salvation passages to buttress his false gospel, Charlie is in fact guilty of this immediate subject as well, turning the many salvation passages into something post-salvation discipleship (e.g. Matt 19:17-30; Mk 8:34-38; 10:17-31; Lk 5:1-11; 9:23-26, 57-62; 14:15-15:32; 18:18-31; Jn 12:24-26).

More on this subject can be read here:

• The Call to Discipleship is a Call to Salvation The Call to Discipleship is a Call to Salvation vs The False Gospel Being Preached at EBMC

• In Mark 8:34-38, Is Jesus Teaching How to be Saved or How to be A Better Christian?

• The Bible Recorded Testimonies of Salvation of Some of the Apostles; Not a Call to Higher Christian Living

• Lordship Salvation is Salvation

11. Do we not give people enough time to change? Apparently people that believe the Bible and apply the standards of the Bible don't give people enough time to change. They are applying their own expected standards, and have excluded patience and forbearing from the equation. How much time exactly does a truly saved person need or require to change? The Bible has something, a lot, to say about this. It says they are changed immediately, and you do not need to wait and see if something good will happen. Why would the effects of the most superdramatic and miraculous event that could ever occur to a human being take longer than a nanosecond to present itself? This is how long it takes for God to perform His salvation operation in the repentant sinner. Salvation is superdramatic, always, and change happens immediately. There are ZERO exceptions, and any argument against it is to make God a liar. How on earth could it not, considering the true fact that the saint has been delivered and freed from the dominion and power of sin forever!

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." (Jn 8:34-36)

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. . . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . . But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:6-7, 14, 17-18)

All of that happened right at the very moment of the new birth, NOT sometime after the new birth, and all of it produces the most incredible and permanent metamorphosis of a human being that one could ever imagination.

12. The issue with men like Tommy is vast head knowledge of the Bible through his childhood rearing in a church and then bible school, but inability to rightly divide it, and then adding his personal experiences to Scripture and interpreting Scripture eisegetically, which is heresy and then brings massive confusion, contradictions and churches full of dead mans bones. Is. 8:20 exposes men like Tommy to be false teachers:

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Tommy's testimony and teachings are contrary to God's Word, in a most critical area, because the light of truth is not in them or him.

As the discourse continues, we see Tommy's false gospel produces people that get "saved" but don't submit to the Holy Spirit for years!!

“We’ve had people in our church and have people in our church who got saved and it was years before they finally started submitting to the Holy Spirit. But they know when they got saved. I think when it comes to fruit, the Bible teaches all who are saved will be like Christ one of these days. This time here on earth though, we don’t know what that process is going to look like for everybody. So we have patience. . . . At the same time to, I am not going to make a declaration of ones salvation based on where they are, what I am seeing from there performance.”

This is heresy, plain and simple. It completely denies the working of the Holy Spirit, the power of the new birth, the superdramatic nature of regeneration and the change it produces, immediately, phenomenally, and permanently. "But they know they are saved." Right. Do the devils also know they are saved, because they believe (cf. Jam 2:!4)? Just plug the sentence in and it becomes true. How naive and gullible and undiscerning does it get?

He repeatedly uses the language, "all who are saved will be like Christ one of these days." "One of these days" actually means after death or the rapture, but nothing to do with during the Christian life, because Tommy's doctrine of "salvation" does not actually change sinners.

He continues to advance the egregious and heretical proclamation, "we don’t know what that process is going to look like for everybody." As already documented above, there is plenty of passages of Scripture that detail the change that occurs in every single truly saved sinner. This also ties into his Christianity divorced from disciple. You can claim to be a Christian but not be a follower of Christ. Hmmm, I wonder how that works. The name “Christian” was first a term of derision applied to – catch this now – the disciples of Christ in Antioch. Every true born again Christian is a disciple (Lk 14:25-15:32; Jn 8:31-36) and thus it is scripted to how the process will be. The details are laid out in Scripture, and it never changes for certain special specimens who continue to rebel against the Triune God.

There is no such thing as a saved non-Christian. There is no such thing as a true born again Christian who doesn’t follow Christ. Every true Christian is a disciple of Christ. Jesus placed demands on those who would be His disciples (e.g., Lk 14:15-33), so we know exactly "what that process is going to look like for everybody."

Christ's call to salvation through Himself includes obedience to His teachings, and that always starts immediately at the moment of conversion (e.g. 1 Jn 2:3-5; Col 1:4-6; Matt 23:23; Ti 2:11-14; etc). True saving repentance ALWAYS changes a life, immediately, continuously and forever (e.g., 2 Cor. 5:17; Ac. 20:18; 26:18; 1 Th. 1:9-10; Ti. 2:11-14; 3:3-8). Repentance MUST produce a change of life, or it is false (e.g. Matt. 21:28-32; 27:1-5; Ac. 8:13-24; Jam. 2:14-26; etc). Thats the whole point of repentance. It changes the person, but that is why it is under the great attack it is, including by false prophets like Tommy the Heretic.

It is a ludicrous statement to make by Tommy and well reflective of the false gospel that he propagates, which was in response to what Charlie stated about him getting saved and then attending the Catholic Church for a little while after his salvation, and doing the imaginary cross on his chest. Charlie had earlier described his dramatic conversion, but Tommy misses the forest for the trees. He is a master at logical fallacies, which is the pathway of false teachers and heretics.

I would say at this point Tommy reveals his true heretical position, and rejection of true Biblical salvation, in a much more transparent manner, unwittingly perhaps, though he has certainly been leaning that way from the beginning of the chat. This is where his true colours come out some more, as he is deceptively attempting to portray a “belief” in Biblical repentance, when in reality he actually rejects true Biblical repentance by a mile. Once again he attempts to differentiate and create a gulf between what happens in the inward man and what happens in the outward man, the flesh:

“Two things I need to point about what you said. For one, yes when a person gets saved, there is a great change on the inward man, the inward man is regenerated but your flesh is still the same. Now, you mention the fruit of the Spirit. A lot of people make a mistake thinking the fruit of the Spirit is the evidence you have the Holy Spirit within you. No, the fruit of the Spirit is the proof you are walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and right before that he said ‘walk in the spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Well how do I know which one I am walking in? Well the lust of the flesh manifests through these and he names off all these sins, if you are doing these things you are walking in the flesh and a Christian is capable of walking in the flesh. . . . Now on 1 John that you mentioned, he also says in chapter 3, ‘beloved now are we the sons of God, but it doth not yet appear what we shall be.’ We don’t want to give people the idea and it’s just theologically wrong, to look at someone’s flesh, look at someone’s outward, there outside, thats the new creature right there, that guy got a haircut, that guy wearing a shirt and tie and all that kinda, no it doth not yet appear what we shall be. We still bear the image of Adam, we still have sinful flesh, our flesh is still vile . . . A lot of people use 1 John to figure out everyone else’s salvation, well thats not why it was written, it was written so you could know that you have eternal life. I don’t believe a saved person is going to hate their brother however I do believe a saved person might not show love to their brother right away, theres that process, I don’t know how long its going to take, I have expectations, I have hope, I have things I am going to encourage, but when we start making these declarations like that, I’m not seeing this right now, therefore salvation is not there, the change is not there, the new creature is not there, I think we are just technically wrong. I think any time someone is professing faith, what we always need to remind them of who they are in Christ, and that it should be like this with them."

1. Wow. Once again, this is just absolutely terrible and heretical on so many different levels, it’s difficult to know where to start. Tommy is desperately grasping at straws as he twists and gouges the Word of God into his own little mould,  like a butcher dicing up leftover cattle meat for burger, all in attempt to justify the “salvation” of someone that is unsaved. These repentance-rejecting heretics are absolute masters of logical fallacies and twisting the doctrines and words of God. U.n.b.e.l.i.e.v.a.b.l.e!

2. He is referring to Gal 5:19-21, concerning those who live after the lusts of the flesh, but that text is NOT saying what Tommy is implying through his twisting of the Scripture. Paul is contrasting saved and unsaved, not two different walks in the Christians life (a fleshly one and a spiritual one). Those that live after the flesh, wil never inherit the kingdom of God, "that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal 5:21), a truth and warning that Paul had mentioned to the Galatians multiple times in the past (v. 21). It is absolutely wicked those who attempt to wrest these passages out of their meaning, as many do, a subject we cover here: Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 15:50; Ephesians 5:5-8, and the Flesh.

When the Bible affirms that “they which do such things [those who practice such sins, vv. 19-21] shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Gal 5:21), it is impossible to interpret this warning as merely a loss of reward or referring to the flesh of a saved person, for those who actually end up in heaven anyway. None of the 18 references to the verb "inherit" in the NT (Matt 5:5; 19:29; 25:34; Mk 10:17; Lk 10:25; 18:18; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 15:50; Gal 4:30; 5:21; Heb 1:14; 6:12; 12:17; 1 Pet 3:9; Rev 21:7) distinguish between a higher class of believers that inherit the kingdom and a lower class that somehow are saved but do not have an inheritance, or another far fetched and wierd interpretation where a believer who inherits heaven but his flesh doesn’t, which is taught by many; rather, the contrast is between those truly saved, and thus “inherit everlasting life” (Matt 19:29), “inherit the kingdom” (Matt 25:34), “inherit the [Millennial] earth” (Matt 5:5), “inherit eternal life” (Mk 10:17), “inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:21), and “inherit all things” (Rev 21:7), and the lost who do not inherit eternal life and the kingdom of heaven. Gal 5:19-21, like 1 Cor 6:9-10 and Eph 5:5-8, is referring to an people, NOT merely the flesh of a saved person, who do not inherit Gods kingdom, which us heaven.

3. Inward man is regenerated but flesh remains the same? Here is what truly saved people know, but Tommy doesn't:

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)

In the very context of the text out of Gal 5 that Tommy is referencing, we have this passage:

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

The flesh does not remain the same. It is crucifed with Christ. It has been put to death, which is a far cry from nothing. At salvation, in repentance we took up the cross symbolizing death to self and our wicked lusts (Mk 8:34-38; Matt 16:24-26; Jn 12:24-26). Those that continue to live after the flesh, sins documented in texts such as Gal 5:19-21 and referred to by Tommy here, these are very obviously unsaved people. Paul even says it there. They will not inherit the kingdom of God. That means they are unsaved. Tommy is indeed antinomian as he has been charged by others. He doesn't understand the flesh's role in salvation. He cannot, because the Bible remains a closed book to him, as long as he continues in his unregenerate estate.

The flesh is an element of the body, and this is what Paul says is being sanctified:

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Th 5:23)

4. Apparently fruit of the Spirit is not evidence that the Holy Spirit indwells that person, only that the person is walking in the Spirit. Okay. Thats a horrible red herring. Obviously walking in the Spirit cannot be possible without indwelling of the Spirit firstly. But this is even beside the point, seeing that the moment one is regenerated they are indwelt with the Spirit of God and full of the fruit of the Spirit. One is full of joy and peace and love, rejoicing and praising the Lord, for “The light of the righteous rejoiceth” (Pr 13:9a), for the great glory that has just occurred in their spirit, soul, and body. Tommy clearly doesn't understand what fruit of the Spirit is to its full extent, as documented already previously. Every single person that has the indwelling Spirit will immediately manifests fruit of the Spirit when they are converted and sealed with the Holy Spirit. In the first century, another fruit was being able to speak in tongues (that is, speak in languages never learnt, which occurred the moment of their new birth, an evidence of Spirit indwelling), but that gift or fruit passed away with the last apostle, having fulfilled its purpose (we write about tongues here: How we Know Modern “Tongue Speaking” is Unbiblical, and Satanic Deception).

5. Once again he misuses 1 Jn 3:1, twisting and perverting this passage out of its meaning and context, a seemingly favourite red herring passage for him. What does 1 Jn 3:1 have to do with what he is saying or what Charlie stated?? Absolutely nothing! He attempts to argue that salvation does not produce any outward change, no change in appearance or behaviour and he uses 1 Jn 3:1 as a prooftext, which is referring to the saints change with his resurrection body at the rapture or death.

Of course outward change of appearance without inward regeneration is false religion, addressed succinctly by the Lord in places like Matt 23, but Tommy is using it as a straw man argument to defy any external change as being fruit of salvation. Tommy is a Heretic, which is why he corrupts the gospel.

6. He perverts and corrupts the epistle of 1 John. It was not just "written so you could know that you have eternal life." 1 John was written indeed as the major book of the bible on the evidence of salvation. The entire epistle has this as its theme. Over and over to almost redundancy we read markers of the truly saved, and how someone can know they are truly saved, or know they are not. We use the epistle to examine our own and other peoples salvation, regardless of the hatred people like Tommy the Heretic have towards it. You can read the full details of the book here: Evidence of Salvation in John's Epistle’s.

7. God says a professing Christian that does not love his brother is unsaved; Tommy says he is saved -- who is right??

8. Tommy’s fruitless “Christian” is actually an unsaved person, but Tommy wants you to really believe that this person is saved, which very likely is describing himself and/or his children and definitely people in the congregation. They are not. Every truly saved born again believer is frutiful, only to varying amounts. There is no unfruitful good ground.

A man doesn’t become someone by what he does. He is who he is by what his heart condition is — whether in-Christ or out-of-Christ. Whether saved or unsaved. Our behaviour and belief comes from out of our position in-Christ (saved) or out-of-Christ (unsaved). “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:” (Pr. 23:7a). For “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.” (Matt 12:34b). “A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” (Matt. 12:35). Hence why, “by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matt. 12:37). Therefore, “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” (Matt. 12:33). In other words, stop pretending. Stop being a fake, an actor, a hypocrite. Stop conforming and imitating. Be either “hot or cold“ and reject “lukewarm” (which are false pretenders, Rev 3:15-17) lest God “spue thee out of [His] mouth” (v. 16) and into the eternal furnace of fire.

9. Tommy’s Christianity is completely man-centred, which is unsurprising considering everything else he has professed thus far. This is about the ultimate high point of man-centredness:

“I think any time someone is professing faith, what we always need to remind them of who they are in Christ, and that it should be like this with them.”

Why would someone need to remind a person that is professing to be saved who they are in Christ and what their actions and behaviours should be?!? Only man-centred, false-gospel preaching, Scripture-twisting heretics would need to remind one that allegedly contains the greatest power upon the earth as to who he is and what he should do. This is the pinnacle of the heretic, and reflective of where his trust, power and allegiance truly rests.

Here is what every true born again believer has, and is in need of no man to ever tell him these things, a Biblical truth present in my own conversion likewise::

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 Jn 2:27)

God the Son and God the Spirit teach, lead and guide His people into all truth:

"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth." (1 Jn 2:20-21)

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (Jn 16:13)

At the end of his spiel on fruitless and man-centred “Christianity,” Tommy stated something that is exactly and perfectly reflective of his own heretical position, though he attempts to charge the Biblical side with this:

“It’s important that we keep these things in their right category and I think people in our zeal to get people behaving a certain way we sometimes get off course a little bit theologically.”

The only camp that attempts to get people acting as robots and imitators is this "free grace" camp of Tommy, where the new birth produces nothing. It is Tommy after all that declares, “I think any time someone is professing faith, what we always need to remind them of who they are in Christ, and that it should be like this with them.” So who is conforming people to a standard? And again, why would there ever be a need to have to tell people these things when it is God Himself that tells us that He teaches these things to all those He indwells.

"And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb 8:11-12)

Charlie’s response is good though it could’ve been much more bold and charged Tommy with what God's Word does — that of being a heretic, because according to Scripture he most certainly is. Someone that advocates for a fruitless and repentant-less “salvation” is a heretic, a false teacher, a false brother (Gab 2:4-5) and “accursed” (Gal 1:8-9). Thats the bottom line, regardless of the obscuring language he may attempt to use to evade his true position, or the double-minded position that he may present. There was enough, especially in this point. This is was Charlie's response:

“1 John was only revealing the fact that there is fruit after salvation. You cannot say there is no fruit. It is wrong to say you don’t have to have any fruit. Period. It is a wrong unbiblical statement. Sure everyone must examine themselves whether they be in the faith. 1 John to point out how this person is saved or this person is not saved, I don’t think we should be spiritual police to try to know who is saved and who isn’t saved. The whole purpose of teaching the Scriptures is to help people know and understand where they stand with God. If someone’s going to say to me, or to anyone else, you don’t need any fruit, I’ll just go and show him from the bible and say no, the Bible says you will have some fruit and this is how it looks like. I understand that you have to walk in the Spirit to have these fruit of the Spirit manifest taken, but when a person gets saved, they are not indifferent about their salvation. For example, the Ethiopian eunuch went away rejoicing. We have the publican, he was beating his hand upon his chest, there was emotion there, different emotions than the Ethiopian eunuch. The woman who was forgiven much, kissed the Lords feet. The prodigal son turned and ran and hugged and kissed his father. To be indifferent, just to say a little prayer in the corner, and have nothing, no emotion, no fruit, no nothing, mate thats wrong, and thats when I say, you are actually teaching people to believe in a dogma and disconnecting a heartfelt relationship with God through Jesus Christ. You are just believing in a religious system, and you are teaching them to just believe, just consent, just put your hand up, like the Catholic Church . . . So this is what I am trying to say to you now, if you mentally consent with all the facts to the true gospel but your faith doesn’t manifest into anything, it’s dead. Then what kind of faith do you have? Is it in the subject of the Lord Jesus Christ, does He mean anything to you? John says we love Him because He first loved us. He’s taken for granted that there is some sort of adoration for the Lord. How does the church of Ephesus return to their first love if they left it? Well it began somewhere.”

Yes, fully agreed. It is ridiculous to believe in a repentant-less, fruitless, change-less "gospel," and then attempt to push it as a virtuous truth worthy of some merit. It is a damnable heresy and as glad as I am that Charlie said what he did, he could have easily taken this to the inevitable place where it belonged: reproved as a false gospel and damnable heresy (2 Pet 2:1). Unsurprising, instead of dealing with what Charlie says here and how it completely opposes and invalidates the corrupted, perverted and anemic “gospel” that he is pushing, Tommy the Heretic goes on the defence by cherry picking one little sentence out of that spiel, and then two words out of that sentence, zooming into it like the Hubble Space Telescope. It’s a massive red herring to cherry pick “Sure everyone must examine themselves whether they be in the faith” out of all that, and then further cherry pick “the faith” out of that sentence, while ignoring the very serious concerns raised by Charlie, which actually further exposes Tommy to be the heretic that he really is (Rom 16:17). He is teaching false doctrine (Rom 16:17), and perverting the gospel (Gal 1:6-9). What he did here is the very definition of straw man and red herring logical fallacies, which is lying and bearing false witness to the truth, and not dealing with the issue on hand at all. Of course there is purpose behind this wresting that Tommy is doing, his attempt to find that one alleged misleading statement that gives the impression that Charlie is misusing Scripture and thus advancing an erroneous gospel. Its not working because in so doing, Tommy exposes himself even further to be the heretic that he is indeed. Tommy blasts into "the faith" out of 2 Cor 13:5, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” and claims that it is not really referring to "the faith" as one would understand it, like the gospel or salvation, but rather something else somewhere out in NeverNeverLand. The desperate grasp at the final stand of the heretic would be amusing if it wasn't so dangerously serious. Well listen here, 2 Cor 13:5 has only one meaning, and it is very, very, very crystal clear. It is 1000% related to the gospel/salvation. At least half of "the faith" references in Scripture, which is 43 occasions in 42 verses, is referring to the gospel/salvation. There are very clear ones like 2 Cor 13:5. That is the ONLY subject, which is not only self-evident by the passage itself, the syntax and grammar of the text, but also further validated plainly by the context which is all about salvation: 2 Cor 2:12–13:5. Only a man with a very serious spiritual problem and serious spite for the truth of God's Word, would so shamelessly and fearlessly construct such terrible arguments. Here is Tommy the Heretic winning gold, silver and bronze for wresting even the most simplest of Scripture, 2 Cor 13:5:

“The term ‘the faith’, thats not, thats not always in reference, and it usually isn’t in reference to, umm, salvation. It’s in reference to our, umm, way of life. As Christians I am in the faith, because I am going to church, I am reading my Bible, I am doing the things God has told us to do, that is part of the faith. In fact, if I do not provide for my own, then I have denied the faith and I’m worse than an infidel. Obviously faith is a reference to the way we live. . . . A lot of these scriptures that are being brought up, a lot of the typical one liners you hear from people are not even in reference to things that are directly about salvation. I think we get so concerned about what we are seeing in somebody . . . they make a profession, I am going to be looking for evidence but that is evidence you know for me you know, but they are not going to stand before me on judgment day. . . .”

"Evidence for me" eh. Does the Bible hold not very high value to the heretic? Is this what easy believism has come down to? A valueless, powerless Word of God that cannot be used to discern, judge, test, examine, reprove, rebuke, correct or understand in sound doctrine and practical Christian living? The things he claims here to be how we know we are in the Christian “way of life,” is extremely superficial, and 100% applicable also to unsaved people playing Christianity, which is nearly every professing Christian in the world. Right around 99% of the professing Christians in the world do these things, go to church, read the bible, provide for their own, yet they are unsaved, unregenerate, lost as a goose gandering in the garden. The Scripture reference, “In fact, if I do not provide for my own, then I have denied the faith than I’m worse than an infidel,” is even only applicable to salvation, our point, but perverted, once again, by Tommy the Heretic. Paul is exposing people that profess to be Christian, as being unregenerate, but it flys right over the head of false teachers who have nefarious agendas and cannot rightly divide the word of truth.

The Bible is essentially a closed book to men like Tommy. It doesn’t hold any value for what it says to false teachers. They aren't so interested in finding the truth and submitting to it, as they are to making Scripture say what they want it to say, bending, twisting, misusing and abusing until it fits. Apparently every man can interpret and judge according to his own personal whelm, whether it is true or not, but not hold anyone else to the same standard. What kind of standards does he actually enforce in his church, and does he not see himself as a ravening hypocrite in this? Indeed we are not the judge but we hold the judges manual in our hands and we are the tools of God to preach those judgments, and all true born again believers know perfectly and precisely what the Bible teaches (Pr 8:8-9; 20:21-22; 1 Jn 2:20-21, 27) and thus can judge sufficiently and explicitly without any hypocrisy or bias, because the Holy Spirit leads (Rom 8:16), guides, directs and teaches the truth to all He indwells, and also in the exact and precise same fashion. "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Cor 2:15). Tommy is not "spiritual," (i.e., saved, which is the exact meaning of the word), therefore he cannot judge righteously (Jn 7:24), but judges with the false judgment of the hypocrite (Rom 2:1-5) and the scorner (Pr 14:6).

This heretical statement about "the faith" and people allegedly misusing Scripture (ignorant Tommy himself being the benchmark), follows with more straw man arguments (meant to distract from his corrupt and unBiblical position, which is their purpose) about some extreme free gracers that have vile sites on the internet that blaspheme God’s name and throw out “f-bombs” and “condemning everybody else for being 'repent of sins' (implying himself) and all that kinda stuff” people he says, “I think they are just there to make the gospel look bad” but apparently their “salvation sounds good, but I would never let these people into my church, you know why, they don’t walk like a brother, they are not acting like a Christian . . . they are not behaving like a brother, so they will be to me a heathen and a publican” but unbelievably he claims that he would “call them” wicked “heathens . . . to repentance, not for salvation, but repentance for restoration, and that is something to we see them doing in the Bible, where you have people that have some very severe sin and the call is not for them to receive salvation but to repent so they can be restored into the church. But unfortunately we do not have the ability to see someone’s heart, but again it is a matter of putting it [repentance assumably] into its right category.” 

W😳W. It just keeps getting better doesn't it.

The description of free gracers, whom Tommy says are vile, f-bombers, heathens, publicans is likely a reference to men like Mark Driscoll, though he never gives that name, a guy who is clearly a false teacher and wolf in sheep’s clothing, yet claims that they are brothers that need to repent, not for salvation, but for restoration. You can’t make this heresy up. So much in the Bible says these people are unsaved, it is redundant. Their, and Tommy's, “faith stands in the wisdom of men” and not “in the power of God,” the very antithesis of 1 Cor 2:5.

These are ungodly men who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness (Ju 1:4), NOT men that require some sort of restoration! Tommy does not believe or understand the Scriptures, which is why he makes such ridiculous statements that contradict Scripture. He claims that those who believe in Biblical repentance that always produces fruit create a standard of expected outcome, but what is this what Tommy is claiming as heathens and publicans and wolves in sheep's clothing??

Tommy continues:

[After a brief glitch] "What we are talking about I guess is that fruit of salvation, knowing exactly how to judge people and judging these things accurately it is a very difficult thing.” He then speaks about two types of false prophets, one teaches a works salvation and false gospel and then another, “But we also have in 2 Peter 2, a lot of people try to keep 2 Peter 2 like its just false prophets that are teaching a works salvation. These are false prophets but its not a works salvation that they are teaching, they are teaching saved people to go back to a lascivious lifestyle, they are encouraging people into sin, and I believe there are many on the free grace side that do this kinda thing. They do make light of sin, they do cause the way of truth to be evil spoken of, and if you read 2 Peter 2 in its context and you do not isolate passages, its not hard to prove whats being taught there, and they are getting saved people to go back into living like a heathen. That is very destructive, that is very evil, we’ve gotta call these people, we need to shame these people.”

It then follows that Tommy needs to be called out and shamed, which is exactly what we are doing here. 2 Peter 2 is indeed about false prophets and false teachers, who deny the Lord that bought them, their biggest characteristic, also Tommy's problem. That means they have a problem with Christ’s Lordship; with His office as boss. They won’t submit and surrender to Him, and thus will not be saved. Lasciviousness is certainly one of the characteristics of these false teachers who profess Christ, but it’s not the only thing, maybe not even the greatest characteristic. As far as “getting saved people to go back into living like a heathen,” this is certainly not true. First of all, they aren’t saved people. Peter separates the false professing “believers” who follow after false teachers/prophets, from those who are in the truth and separated from the false teachers/prophets. We see this in 2 Pet 2:2-3, which reads: “And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.” Those that are warned and exposed here as “many shall follow their pernicious ways” are actually false believers. These are also exposed by the apostle Paul in Rom 16:18. The ones that are actually true believers, are those that are of “the way of truth,” whom are spoken evilly of by the false teacher out of necessity, because of the false believers, who, again, are following their pernicious ways. It is a means to keep the coalition going and growing. Paul again makes that same contrast in Rom 16, those that are of the truth will be exposing and opposing false teachers (v. 17), while the false believers follow after the false teacher because of his personality and oration ability (v. 18).

Tommy towards the end of the discourse:

“I think in our desire to distant ourselves from them [the false prophets in 2 Pet 2, who Tommy says are characterized by lasciviousness] I think people on our side are complicating the gospel. I just say, let’s just preach the gospel the way it is. Lets not add anything to it, lets not complicate it, but lets call these heathen out for what they are. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, they bring destruction to peoples lives and we refuse to fellowship with them. We refuse to have anything to do with them. And if people who are like that truly are saved, maybe they’ll be ashamed of themselves and they’ll repent. I think most of them are just false prophets and devils, even though they are saying a lot of the right stuff on salvation.”

1. What side is Tommy actually? His corrupted gospel says he is “free grace,” but he puts himself on “our” side that truly believe in a true gospel that requires repentance from sin, that is turning from sin, self, stuff and people. Does someone who denies repentance (as evident in this discourse), actually believe this? Not a chance.

2. Tommy has great difficulty believing and applying the Bible. He says the false teachers and false prophets of 2 Pet 2, whom he calls vile, heathen, wolves in sheep’s clothing, wicked, devils, might actually be saved. No. They aren’t saved. But he doesn't know the better because the "Spirit of truth" whom gives discernment does not dwell in his temple.

3. Tommy has added and subtracted much to the false gospel that he purveys. He has subtracted repentance of sin, fruit and evidence of salvation and added turning from unbelief to belief. There is much more, but you get the picture. He himself is not doing what he wants others to do.

4. The truth is, he wants people to stop preaching the truth and align with his false, perverted and anemic "gospel" that only damns souls to hell. No, that won't be happening. Yes, let's just preach the gospel the way it is, and NOT the way Tommy says it is, which only makes false pretenders two-fold children of hell. You can read here about The Truth Gospel that Saves.

5. According to his very own words, which condemn him, he is a "wolf in sheep’s clothing . . . bring[ing] destruction to peoples lives and we" should all "refuse to fellowship with [him]."

Error and Fallacy: “Carnal Christianity” and "Four Kinds of Believers," Both of Which Oppose the True Biblical Salvation Position

In the context of fruitful Christians, Charlie claimed:

“And this is another talking point: is there such thing as carnal Christians? I believe that there is.”

Charlie blames carnal Christianity on “these people creeping in saying to you, ‘you don’t need any fruit.’”

These are not "Christians" at all that say this, that you don't need any fruit. Calling them "Christians" is bringing great confusion and contradiction to the Word of God, which always and clearly separates the true from the pretending. "Carnal Christianity" is false Christianity. Full stop. There is no such thing as a "carnal Christian," a subject we have covered frequently here at 20/20, including:

• Keswick Currency of “Unbelief,”“Lukewarm,” “Backsliding,” and “Carnal,” Describe False Professing “Christians,” Not True Born Again Believers

• Does the Bible Teach the Class of Christian known as “Carnal Christian”?

• Misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 to Produce the Erroneous Teaching of "Carnal Christianity"

Charlie also creates terrible confusion when he divides believers into four kinds, which is wholly unBiblical:

“I believe there are four kinds of believers: true believers, non-believers, backsliding believers, and professing believers which can be apostates.”

This is very, very wrong. It's actually heretical. There are only two types of people concerning one's nature (the same criteria given by Charlie here), consistently provided throughout Scripture and to attach three or four is adding to God's Word. It takes wresting of the Scriptures and falsely dividing the Word of truth to come to this faulty conclusion, and the end result can only be confusion, doubting God's Word, and inoculation to the truth.

1. "Backsliding Christians" are false, hypocritical, pretending "Christians" — Keswick Currency of “Unbelief,”“Lukewarm,” “Backsliding,” and “Carnal,” Describe False Professing “Christians,” Not True Born Again Believers and Saved People Don't Backslide - They Are Not Apostates

2. "Apostate Christians" are false, hypocritical, pretending "Christians" — Saved People Don't Backslide - They Are Not Apostates and Three Main Stops on the Road to Apostasy.

Conclusion

Tommy essentially teaches no repentance (not ever mentioning or describing repentance in his salvation invitations or "gospel" videos or during sermons or in written material such as statement of faith) and false repentance (when forced to address it in his books and articles or personal conversation, actually opposing true repentance), since he actually believes its only post-salvation. Tommy's "repentance" concludes as a mere intellectual “repentance,” one of mental assent and foreign to Gods Word (except maybe in another word, not a word for repentance, but a purely intellectual change of mind, which is the Greek "metaballo" found once in Scripture, Ac 28:6), and is in fact reflective of the devils “faith” (Jam 2:19). This means he is preaching a false and perverted gospel (Gal 1:6-7), which then means he is an accursed false teacher (Gal 1:8-9) and false brother (Gal 2:4-5).

A bit more on Ac 28:6 and "metaballo." The “repentance” he embraces is not found in Scripture but is reflected in another word (not any of the words translated as repentance or its synonyms/principles) which is that of “metaballo” found in Ac. 28:6 and translated as "changed their minds.” The definition of "metaballo" is "to turn about in opinion; a changed mind," which is confined purely to the intellect, no action, and nothing of the will of man or his emotions -- all of which are faculties of man involved in true saving repentance. So that is the word that men like Tommy are in fact representing when speaking of their false repentance.

Tommy speaks well and comes across as knowledgeable in the Bible, but the power of God is in the message of a passage, not in the formulation of a sermon that doesn't communicate what a passage says. All of Gods words (Pr 8:8) are “plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.” (Pr 8:9). Those that understand and have found knowledge, i.e., been born again, they “know the certainty of the words of truth;” (Pr 22:21a). They know and love the truth (1 Jn 2:20-21; Ps 119:127) and “hate every false way.” (Ps 119:128). False teachers do not, and sadly that is exactly what we find with pastor Tommy McMurtry who advances a false gospel that excludes Biblical repentance (including repentance from sin) and Christ's Lordship, adds to God's Word (turning from unbelief to belief), denies fruit and evidence of salvation, and severely corrupts and wrests Scripture (including entire books such as 1 John) to arrive at his false conclusions which he buttresses through the dishonouring and heretical methodology of interpretation called eisegesis and logical fallacies. There is more but that is it in a nutshell. Therefore we expose him and oppose him in obedience to God's Word:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." (Rom 16:17-18)